lets give them a chance, what has been the average conversion rate from period Jan 1 to date - the paa team seem really quiet in repsonse to the forum generally  , c'mon and tell us its still 2 - 3 in 10 or hide away and confirm what we believe that it's closer to 1 in 10 and doesnt pay right now financially speaking.

that doesnt mean we dont want to work with PAA - more we want a different way of working to find clients that need advice and service, not names that want to pick our brains and get a quote -

Guys

It's tough out there. No medals for pointing that out. We have all seen large operations cutting back, and others going into administration. As has rightly been pointed out, Moneysupermarket has not been immune from these pressures and are themselves having to reduce headcount in some of the less productive areas. Not because they're at risk of going under, but purely as a piece of sensible fiscal management. My expectation is that they'll emerge fitter, stronger and more profitable as a result.

To answer some of the specific points:

1. I don't know anybody in PAA who 'doesn't care'. The team really strives every day to drive the right balance between good for customers (you), good for shareholders and good for staff. Some of you may also have heard me banging on about this balance of benefits, how I am committed to delivering a true Win-Win where what's good for you is good for us and vice-versa. This is still the case - in my view it's the only way to achieve sustainable profitability - and is all the more important in difficult times like these.

2. PAA do not set the price in the Bidding Scheme. If the price is high or the price is low, it's entirely down to demand, what people are willing to pay - and supply. Of course, there's a minimum price for every lead, mainly driven by what it costs to generate a valid lead, after Google or Marketing costs, folks who click (and incur a charge to us) but don't complete a lead form, Disney characters, Mr and Mrs Wa*ker and their profane friends, missing or obviously invalid phone numbers. I guarantee you it costs more that you'd think to create a Moneysuppermarket lead. I could give you as many leads as you like at next to no cost, but they won't be any good, or I could give you great leads for next to nothing, but my business won't be around for very long as it's not a sustainable model.

3. We don't do free leads. Moneysupermarket's in house brokers pay (they have a bidding account), Mortgage 2000 pay, our biggest buyers pay, our smallest buyers pay. That way we can be impartial and ensure everybody is treated fairly. We don't do discounts either.

4. Moneysupermarket are not scaling back their in house mortgage or insurance broker teams. The team at risk is a filtering team who mainly traige inbound calls from the phone numbers on the website.

5. Nothing I'm seeing in our conversion analyses suggests the average conversion is different from the one in five we've been quoting. I'm also hearing very good things about our term lead conversion and the new pension leads too. It's self-evident that parts of the mortgage market have all but disappeared with providers cutting back product, and dual pricing is hardly helping. This is bound to impact conversion in certain pockets. However, there is a very wide range of conversion rates across brokers, partly dependent on location, partly on lead type, partly on experience and probably partly on expectations. I really believe that if you think our leads convert well or you think they're rubbish, you are probably right.

6. Consumers coming through the Moneysupermarket comparison site who click on a product where there is no online arrangement with the  provider will be presented with the option to call Moneysupermarket, have a Moneysupermarket adviser call them, or be contacted by a trusted third party adviser (you). A lead is only created if they click this option. The lead form tells them twice that they will be contacted. We then send them 2 confirmations that they will be contacted. I struggle to see how you can tell somebody something five times and they still don't get it.

7. I think Moneysupermarket's Google ads strike a pretty decent balance between using words that are attractive to maximise volume, and using words that set the correct expectations. I really have no problem with an ad that says 'Get expert advice on life insurance products from as little as £5 a month'. A lead is a lead, not a guaranteed hot to trot sold client, pen in hand, waiting to sign the form. If you want those, the price would be a lot higher and there will be far fewer. I was chatting to a long-term member the other day who told me he has never lost a life sale because the mortgage didn't go through. Pretty much everyone can get insured for a fiver a month, and for pretty much everyone, it'd be the wrong answer. What you do well is help them see the right answer.

8. You would never see any complaint about the wording of the ads any other lead provider uses. Why - BECAUSE PAA IS THE ONLY PROVIDER THAT REVEALS ITS LEAD SOURCES. And the only one which allows you to pick and choose, and the only one that gives you a Forum to voice your opinions and share ideas.

9. I agree with the observation that most of the comment on this forum is negative. Don't make the mistake of believing that that means most members are unhappy with PAA. We have thousands of members. Almost all will never post on here. From talking to them, they're either too busy or find it lacks balance. Some will occasionally write to me or their Account Manager with good news and thanks. I appreciate that I get a much more balanced view than you guys reading this. That's why I know we are by-and-large making the right decisions - not complacent, just better informed.

10. I have asked previously that people treat each other respectfully in this Forum, and refrain from personal attacks or slights against specific individuals. You can take a pop at me - I have broad enough shoulders and I am open to challenge - but there is a post elsewhere with a personal slight against a named industry figure. This is unacceptable. Posting on this site is a privelege not a right, and I will revoke that permission if I see this behaviour repeated.

If any one you would like to get in touch with specific win-win ideas, I would love to hear from you. Please email me through your Account Management team.

Thanks for your continued support,

Dave

Guys

It's tough out there. No medals for pointing that out. We have all seen large operations cutting back, and others going into administration. As has rightly been pointed out, Moneysupermarket has not been immune from these pressures and are themselves having to reduce headcount in some of the less productive areas. Not because they're at risk of going under, but purely as a piece of sensible fiscal management. My expectation is that they'll emerge fitter, stronger and more profitable as a result.

To answer some of the specific points:

1. I don't know anybody in PAA who 'doesn't care'. The team really strives every day to drive the right balance between good for customers (you), good for shareholders and good for staff. Some of you may also have heard me banging on about this balance of benefits, how I am committed to delivering a true Win-Win where what's good for you is good for us and vice-versa. This is still the case - in my view it's the only way to achieve sustainable profitability - and is all the more important in difficult times like these.

2. PAA do not set the price in the Bidding Scheme. If the price is high or the price is low, it's entirely down to demand, what people are willing to pay - and supply. Of course, there's a minimum price for every lead, mainly driven by what it costs to generate a valid lead, after Google or Marketing costs, folks who click (and incur a charge to us) but don't complete a lead form, Disney characters, Mr and Mrs Wa*ker and their profane friends, missing or obviously invalid phone numbers. I guarantee you it costs more that you'd think to create a Moneysuppermarket lead. I could give you as many leads as you like at next to no cost, but they won't be any good, or I could give you great leads for next to nothing, but my business won't be around for very long as it's not a sustainable model.

3. We don't do free leads. Moneysupermarket's in house brokers pay (they have a bidding account), Mortgage 2000 pay, our biggest buyers pay, our smallest buyers pay. That way we can be impartial and ensure everybody is treated fairly. We don't do discounts either.

4. Moneysupermarket are not scaling back their in house mortgage or insurance broker teams. The team at risk is a filtering team who mainly traige inbound calls from the phone numbers on the website.

5. Nothing I'm seeing in our conversion analyses suggests the average conversion is different from the one in five we've been quoting. I'm also hearing very good things about our term lead conversion and the new pension leads too. It's self-evident that parts of the mortgage market have all but disappeared with providers cutting back product, and dual pricing is hardly helping. This is bound to impact conversion in certain pockets. However, there is a very wide range of conversion rates across brokers, partly dependent on location, partly on lead type, partly on experience and probably partly on expectations. I really believe that if you think our leads convert well or you think they're rubbish, you are probably right.

6. Consumers coming through the Moneysupermarket comparison site who click on a product where there is no online arrangement with the  provider will be presented with the option to call Moneysupermarket, have a Moneysupermarket adviser call them, or be contacted by a trusted third party adviser (you). A lead is only created if they click this option. The lead form tells them twice that they will be contacted. We then send them 2 confirmations that they will be contacted. I struggle to see how you can tell somebody something five times and they still don't get it.

7. I think Moneysupermarket's Google ads strike a pretty decent balance between using words that are attractive to maximise volume, and using words that set the correct expectations. I really have no problem with an ad that says 'Get expert advice on life insurance products from as little as £5 a month'. A lead is a lead, not a guaranteed hot to trot sold client, pen in hand, waiting to sign the form. If you want those, the price would be a lot higher and there will be far fewer. I was chatting to a long-term member the other day who told me he has never lost a life sale because the mortgage didn't go through. Pretty much everyone can get insured for a fiver a month, and for pretty much everyone, it'd be the wrong answer. What you do well is help them see the right answer.

8. You would never see any complaint about the wording of the ads any other lead provider uses. Why - BECAUSE PAA IS THE ONLY PROVIDER THAT REVEALS ITS LEAD SOURCES. And the only one which allows you to pick and choose, and the only one that gives you a Forum to voice your opinions and share ideas.

9. I agree with the observation that most of the comment on this forum is negative. Don't make the mistake of believing that that means most members are unhappy with PAA. We have thousands of members. Almost all will never post on here. From talking to them, they're either too busy or find it lacks balance. Some will occasionally write to me or their Account Manager with good news and thanks. I appreciate that I get a much more balanced view than you guys reading this. That's why I know we are by-and-large making the right decisions - not complacent, just better informed.

10. I have asked previously that people treat each other respectfully in this Forum, and refrain from personal attacks or slights against specific individuals. You can take a pop at me - I have broad enough shoulders and I am open to challenge - but there is a post elsewhere with a personal slight against a named industry figure. This is unacceptable. Posting on this site is a privelege not a right, and I will revoke that permission if I see this behaviour repeated.

If any one you would like to get in touch with specific win-win ideas, I would love to hear from you. Please email me through your Account Management team.

Thanks for your continued support,

Dave

 Just a slight correction here. You are NOT the only one who allows us to pick and choose. The lead provider I use is much cheaper than you (by 50%) and I have complete choice whether to accept the lead or not. I am told where the lead is (pinpointing the lead on google maps), the amount of loan required, full details of the client ( age, salary etc), in fact all the details I need except for full name, address and telephone number. If I don't want the lead, I don't take it. I only pay for the leads I want. Result: very good conversion rate!!

Derek

Thanks Derek.

I was referring to picking and choosing lead sources, but this idea is interesting.

Some questions:

1. what happens if you're busy on an appointment when the 'option notification' comes in? Do you still get to exercise the option?

2. do you have a daily/monthly cap, or do they keep sending you options willy-nilly?

3. do you have stated territories or would they send you everything?

4. do you know what they do with the leads you reject? Presumably sell them to other people?

5. Are they fixed price or through a bidding scheme?

Would be very useful if you could fill in the blanks please.

Best wishes

Dave

i too have started using the same lead supplier ( no names mentined but sounds exactly the same) and can answer Dave's question though based on what I know for the remortgage cases

2. there is no daily / monthly cap - you buy as you see fit - if you dont want any you dont buy

3. you can pick your own terrritory by usingf first 2 letters of postcode - for example TS

4. leads are real time and rejects are not re sold to the "community" in whcih they work - I hope this holds true with PAA also !

5. they are a fixed price and options vary from 23 ? to 45 ? per lead - subscription / direct debit = lower price / pay per lead higher price - 

1. if the option comes in -  if on appointment you might miss the lead but if I get a PAA lead an whislt in an appointment I cannot ring within the golden 5 mins to 1 hour and lead gone cold ! . can argue this point til you blue in the face  as to which is  better

 therefore if I see a lead for 95% remortgage and looking for income stretch dont bother buying - if lead is say 70% LTV and easy fit on income then want to buy it

leads generated mainly via google Pay per click and natural searches and not on dubious 3rd party sites

works well at a time when we are more focused on quality of the leads 

there needs to be more qualifying of leads to take them to the next level and cut out the waste,  

Hi Derek2

This is the first time I have posted on this forum and has to be said it is very intersting reading. I am now in the process of looking at purchasing leads to supplement my business as I still believe there are enough leads out there for everyone. As a current member of Mortgage 2000 I do get some of the Paa Leads and as already detailed quality isnt great, although to be fair I have never had a problem with PAA when I tell them the number is wrong or that the person who submitted the lead did so in error, this lead has always been replaced. I was wondering Derek if you dont find this to cheeky could you email me the lead company you are mentioning or if anyone else knows which one it would be greatfully received. How do I email people direct is that at all possible?

 Anyway, I hope everyone is still profitable in these difficult times, I feel if we can ride the storm things will be better for it in the long run.

Matt

To pick up on a point made earlier, I can believe there are a huge number of PAA members who are very satisfied and do not post on this forum - we are one of the satisfied, but do tend to post.

There is a very obvious reason - this forum is dominated by people continually raising issue with the quality of leads - the points raised rarely change and thread after thread is re-written in a different way.  There are more posts on the forum from people who profess to no longer use PAA than I can count...............Question - why still visit the forum them?

I am not trying to say that your issues are not real - but if you have these issues take the obvious approach, try and sort them or change your model or ultimately your provider.

My aim is not to rangle others out there my aim it to illustrate that a forum is best used to benefit fellow members - sometimes good point sometimes bad.....................just a few hot tips, best practices etc would not go a miss.  Re-writing the same thing time after time benefits no one - it drives positive members away from the forum whose comments may help you get a better conversion, and potentially puts new members off who might have a great conversion.

I take a very straight forward approach - if we have issues with batches of leads (which i have to say never really happens) i speak with my account manager and we either sort it out or agree to differ.

Please believe me when I say we dont live in a rosy world where every lead is great and we convert 100% - that does not and will not ever hapen with this model - but we do accept the rough with the smooth and if there is an issue we try to get it sorted in a productive manner.

What ever model any of the forum members have I hope it works - if so keep doing it, and heres a thought tell the rest of us why its so great (leaving out the Colonells secret ingredient if you like), what you do and how you do it............and you never know, you might get a hot tip back in return.

Best of luck to all.

 Same old views just slightly re-written!!! Ditto!!!

But hang on you are the only one with these views so it seems a shame to keep your post up front. The number of brokers willing to voice their opinions is for the benefit of all, if anyone disagrees they will say so but you are on your own and like you I would never insinuate that you are not genuine or not for real??? I myself would really love to hear from other brokers with their formulas for success and hints and tips as you put it, but let's be realistic the only ones buying are the big companies and they are on their last legs. Therefore the smaller more resilient broker will emerge victorious and will set the agenda. Thinking short term has brought about these difficult times and it is for the benefit of the lead provider to listen and act upon it for the future. To suggest that you have no problems with leads is a joke in these market conditions and to suggest such a thing will only make the unsatisfied more adamant that you are either the special one or that you maybe do not exist. In an election it is the "turn" out that decides the outcome not the "stay in doors".

Right on Q.

Well I look real to me, and my wife would tell me I am real - oh and the kids for that matter!

You have said this in the past and I think you mean I may be a plant (not the green type) - well I am not, wether you chose to believe is up to you.

Now, as you were a little eager to reply you clearly missed some of my comments - we do have problems with some leads, but these are the same as they have ever been - we are converting at the c30% we have always converted at - some weeks we convert at 15% some at 40%, we look at an average, and we are realistic about how the leads are generated and what can and cant convert.

I dont understand your continued comments re the big companies being the only ones buying, and that they are on their last legs - who are you refering to? Not every large brokerage is falling appart or have I missed something.  Yes things are more difficult at the moment, but I am not aware that all large companies are inploding - although admittedly I do not know everything! (I would not however put us in the large firm box)

You are correct with your election analagy..................so I would like to call on PAA to run a mini campaign - nothing to laborious, but whilst the account managers are talking to their regular contacts who are relitively happy with what they get from PAA, please ask them to post on the forum, and ask again and again.........this is the only way we will begin to get a balanced view.

If PAA do this and we dont start to see some more positive feedback - they all is left is for me to eat my hat, because evidently I am the only one who is relitivelty happy, and Barney you must be correct.

 I think you could say we are both right on Q??

The Ying and the Yang as they say.

TML and Vesta have already been taken over and those are only the higher profile brokers. You see adverts on all the sites advertising brokers for sale and it is such a shame, but to compound it with less than reliable lead sources and refund policies is adding fuel to the fire. The larger companies service numerous advisers and it is these numbers that support many lead sites, so the profit margin may be acceptable for the short term but the reduction in numbers of these companies will make on hell of a hole in the profit, when it comes. We have seen this right across the market in respect of packagers as well, no one is immune and my take on the situation is to not alienate new or existing brokers, but to make suggestions to enhance the process. If that means sounding bitter or twisted that only comes from the poor response that we get, and the fact that there is no other voice out there to say otherwise. I will await the force of the pro-PAA brigade and will also promise to eat my hat if they do appear. Who wishes to take some odds on that happening???

Love & Peace  

i have read this forum with great interest. I have started up my own practice after working for someone. I used paa then, and have resigned up again.

Are the leads getting worse? Yes. Is that PAA's fault? Only partly

Lets be fair boys and girls, we've had things good for far too many years now. We are on the brink of a recession, inflation has gone through the roof. These are bad times and in this scare mongering society of the press I think its perfectly normal to expect the quality of leads to deminish. Clients that could get deals as lenders were throwing money at people have gone, and the general public are concerned at the addition cost that higher mortgages bring, so it is expected that we are going to receive a bundle of tentative enquires. Its doesn't help us in these hard times, were leads are going up and quality is going down, but this is the market, not paa's fault solely.

However, I do think that paa could help themselves and more importantly us. They need to qualify the submission process far clearer. Too many times clients have been contacted, unknowing that they were going to be contact, thinking a comparision page was going to appear. This needs to be spoon feed to clients.

This may make the number of leads going through PAA's books less, but quality will improve, and when quality is improved, costs, regardless of if they are rising, will not be so much of an issue for us brokers.

Come on PAA, you talked of this being a success for both of us, a win win situation. When the market is this bad, there are some simply tweaks you can do to your system, that will improve the quality, reduce the complaints, and show a willingness to do something, however small.

 Brokers, I think this is a good model, but we just have to stick in there. its not all doom and gloom.

 Matthew Gamble

Hi Matthew,

Thanks for the post, thanks for signing up with us, and how refreshing to hear a balanced view.

I do find it hard to believe that consumers miss what we consider to be some pretty obvious signposting that an adviser will be in touch. However, your post, and others in similar vein indicate that many do.

I would like to fix this - it's not a great experience for the consumer, not a satisfactory one for you, and whilst PAA's revenue would fall as a result, I'm not interested in making short term profits on other peoples' disatisfaction. Ultimately, it would cost us anyway if advisers stopped buying. Exactly the win-win point I've been making elsewhere.

Whilst I won't commit to a specific change, and I know that the IT development won't happen fast enough for any of us, I will commit to looking earnestly for a solution that suits all three parties to the process, and implementing it as soon as we can.

Best wishes,

Dave

one idea might include - contacted by telephone - this has been brought up before and makes it clear someone will need to speak to the person, for example and not limited to

1. contacted by telephone
2. the information here is not enough to provide a mortgage quote - you will be contacted by telephone
3. I wish to discuss my needs with a mortgage consultant by telephone
4. click here to research mortgages online or complete the form below to have a mortgage adviser telephone you to discuss your enquiry

part of the problem is the google ads and the landing page send out differing messages, "compare mortgages online" suggest this to the client and they proceed beucase your ad tells them this - as soon as the ad uses the word compare online or free quote or something similar the suggestion is exactly this - does the broker community want leads that are asking for quotes, advice both or something different and I have missed the point.

the easiest way is to have an option on your landing page for "telephone" based contact or a redirect to the online sourcing